I won't call organizational christianity put together by men the church. There is only one church and Jesus is building it- not any man. Most local assemblies today, if not all, focus on themselves. Programs for the "flock", new buildings, great entertainment, sound and video stimulation, coffee and doughnuts. They spend almost all the offering on buildings or salaries for "full time christian workers". (As if the Apostle Paul and every Christian are not to work for the Lord full time but do so and work in order to eat -2 Thess 2:10). Religious people mostly forget the prisons, the sick, the orphans, the widows (unless the widows are in the "group" or "club"). They forget Matthew 25 and just remember Hebrews 10:25 (to not forsake the assembling together). They forget Hebrews 10:24 which encourages us to stimulate one another to love and good deeds. Most of the stimulation is "give more money" or "come back to the next service". The focus is on feeding the establishment created by a man or men. The focus is not on making disciples. The focus is on "making a name for oneself" just like the Babylonians were trying to do. Just like the Pharisees were trying to do. "Beware the yeast of the pharisees" is just a cry in the wilderness. It is ignored. "Come out of Babylon" is also. Organized religion will be destroyed in a "single day". She glorified herself and fornicated with the merchants of the world. God is building a church but it is not the one the public sees. Those who try to be first will be the last. Those that try to save their little empire (local assembly) will loose it. Those that give up their self-serving life will gain real life. There is a bride being prepared that is holy and spotless and blameless. She is dressed in white. She is not led by man but by the Lord. She does not have fancy buildings, exorbiant budgets or staff. She does not have a priest, a little priest (pastor) ruling over her, although she has pastors, evangelists, prophets, apostles, and teachers serving (not ruling), leading but not driving. There will be a banquet but the antendees will be those brought in from the streets. Those who stood on the street corners with loud arrogant prayers will find themselves weeping and gnashing their teeth. Those who sought position and honor and glory from men(other christians) did not know the love of God (John 5:41-44). They were locked out because they had no oil. The pot cannot be changed once it comes out of the kiln. The leopard cannot change its spots. Disciples fully made are like their teachers (predecessors). All we can do is repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near. Only the master potter can fix this. He can break the pot and grind it up and start over. He can use the people, but not the man made structure we call "the church". Jesus said he would build the church. He told us to make disciples. Most people think they are doing Jesus work by "building" the church. They forget to make true disciples of love. They forget the attitude of a servant, giving up the life of "me first" in exchange of a life of "me last". They try to get their spiritual needs met through emotional stimulation, worldly success, or praise and glory from other christians. They try to be Jesus for the congregation. they stand in the way, without realizing it, of those trying to find that one on one relationship with Jesus. Israel wanted a king. The congregation wants a priest. Mankind will accept almost any substitute for God, and sadly, Christian leaders too easily accept this role. But Jesus said His sheep hear his voice. He does not leave us a orphans. We must get out of the dumpster and go in the restaurant if we want a good meal. We can't keep telling people, "Stay in the dumpster-better garbage is coming".

What Breaks My Heart

Salvation as a new years resolution and not something to be worked out with fear and trembling (yes there is a moment when the veil is lifted and our eyes opened but we must fight to be committed to the things of God each day).

Biblical illiteracy

Critical / haughty spirits

Lack of love

No power / holy spirit

Cowardliness / lack of male leadership (family, church, etc.)

I thank God for the ministry I am a part of as well as brothers and sisters in Christ who have shown me that I am no fool to give up what I cannot keep to gain what I cannot lose.

While I do accept the priesthood of all believers, I do think belonging to a local church in some form is essential. Submission to leadership is taught but it is taught from a Hebrews 13:17 perspective "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." which is healthy and in its rightful place when applied biblically. Unfortunately it is not in many places and people get hurt. In the New Testament you can see structure in the 1st century church as evidenced by the way Paul's letters are written - he addresses individuals and specific churches. Now that I think of it, Paul addressed division and leader idolization in 1 Corinthians 1:10-17

I also encourage you my brothers and sisters to visit http://www.persecution.com/ and read about the persecuted church outside of America - many of these believers, like early Christians, congregate in the woods and homes because they do not have the freedom to openly worship as we do.

Ephesians 4:11-14
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

BTW, Anne Graham Lotz's "I Saw the Lord" is a great book. It focuses on the beautiful Isaiah 6:1-8.

Bridgette
Raleigh, NC

God desires us angry. First read the text of Psalm 4. Now with that, look at the way that God desires us angry, in the following verses it pans it out for you:"ponder in your own heart on your beds and be silent." Does it not make sense? "Be angry" look inward? This is enough to be angry at: Our own sinful hearts. Now, God doesn't leave us hanging. He wants us angry about our sin, taking to him the sins we've committed, and those of others by talking it all out with God, confessing what irks us most about complacency of the lay-people, by telling him about it. God forbid the leaders to be complacent about anything! But do we pray for our leaders? Have we forgiven them? What we have is a priceless treasure! Jesus Christ the Righteous! Interceding for us. While it is called today it is the day of salvation, or mercy as an equivalent word, so also is forgiveness, which I can not get enough of. If today is truly the day of salvation, and will be even after the rapture, and as long as people are on earth and have a choice to decide how to live they can repent from sin, and choose mercy because it will be available to all! Now, that time, that is that great day of the Lord has not yet come. I will say that as mercy is the true heart of what the gospel is, what we have currently, friends, is a giving gospel. This is true. Mercy, much like forgiveness gives, when all is taken, mercy and forgiveness have something more to say to us. Anne out of Arizona. If there are any remaining questions please feel free to e-mail me at g.annie9@gmail.com I'm out of battery power, so if anything needs clarification, further explanation, I've got more, so let me know.

The thing that breaks my heart about the church is that it still exists.

It saddens that evangelical Protestants don't show the same concern for the unborn that Catholics do. The March for Life is attended by very few Protestants. Sidewalk counseling at the abortion clinic is done by mostly all Catholics. These are good people; I wish the other Christian churches would come on board. Abortion in this country will end when the Church of Jesus Christ decides it will end.

Steve, I'm an atheist so I think you can understand why I have a beef against the church in America. What more is there to say?

What's your beef, other than you don't share the belief system? In a democracy, we all get to compete in the marketplace of ideas...even us evangelicals. Are you going to give us "the church has done more harm than any other religion in history" thing? Nearly 95% of the war carnage throughout history was caused by OTHER "isms" - humanism, communism, fascism, etc...sure, the church has blood on its hands, but it isn't the great "killer" that anti-Christians like to say it is. Response: If communism is hypothetically responsible for political repression in China, then Christianity is certainly responsible for the atrocities of the Inquisition, the Crusades and witch burnings. Is it really fair to condemn a school of thought for the perversions and abuses of its teachings? I think not. I don’t blame modern Christians for anything that happened in the past. But the past shows us just how dangerous Christianity can be when it gains political power. Nazi Germany is a prime example of this. Perhaps you will travel down the road of "the bible is inaccurate". Ok, that's fine - show me some. Response: 1) The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. Genesis 1:1 The earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. From science, we know that the true order of events was just the opposite. 2) “And God said, Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3) and “. . .And the evening and the morning were the first day” (Genesis 1 :5), versus “And God said, ‘Let there be light in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night....’ “And God made two lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also… And the evening and morning were the fourth day” (Genesis 1 :14-19). These violates two major facts. Light cannot exist without a sun, and secondly, how can morning be distinguished from evening unless there is a sun and moon? Christians try to claim that god is the light he is referring to yet, considering the context it is quite obvious that the light god is speaking of is the light emitted by the sun. Just another feeble attempt at trying to rationalize such a MAJOR blunder. 3) God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament (Genesis 1:6-8). This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our space program. 4) Plants are made on the third day (Genesis 1:11) before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (Genesis 1:14-19). 5) “And God said, ‘Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind… ‘And the evening and the morning were the third day” (Genesis 1:11-13), versus “And God said, ‘Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life… And God created - great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly… And the evening and the morning were the fifth day” (Genesis 1:20-23). Genesis says that life existed first on the land as plants and later the seas teemed with living creatures. Geological science can prove that the sea teemed with animals and vegetable life long before vegetation and life appeared on land. 6) “And God said, ‘Let the water bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven” (Genesis 1:20). Birds did not emerge from water. 7) "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, the beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made…every thing that creepth upon the earth after his kind…" (Genesis 1:24-25). Science contends that reptiles were created long before mammals, not simultaneously. While reptiles existed in the Carboniferous Age, mammals did not appear until the close of the Reptilian Age. 8) “So God created man in his own image,...male and female created he them” (Genesis 1:27), and “the evening and the morning were the sixth day” (Genesis 1:31). If Adam was created on the 6th day, approximately 6,000 years ago (Bishop Usher’s calculations), then nobody lived before 4,000 B.C. Prehistoric men would be fictitious. By tracing the genealogy of Jesus back 77 generations to Adam, the third chapter of Luke also supports belief in a very young earth. If each man had lived approximately 100 years, then the world would be no more than 9,684 (7,700 + 1984) years old. If each of Jesus’ ancestors had lived to be 1,000 years old (an age not even reached by Methuselah), the earth would still be only 78,984 (77,000 + 1984) years old, according to creationists. 9) “And to every beast of the earth, and every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so” (Genesis 1:30). Carnivorous beasts and fowl do not eat green herbs, nor were all animals originally herbivores. Simply consider tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, barracudas, tigers, etc. 10) In Genesis 1, the entire creation takes 6 days (Genesis 1:31), at the end of which the earth and its living things are pretty much as they are today. But we know from modern science that the universe (including the earth and life on earth) evolved slowly over billions of years. 11) In Genesis 2:7 humans are created instantaneously from dust and breath, whereas they actually evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. Science can in fact trace back human evolution CONCLUSIVELY 3 .2 million years. 12) God makes the animals (Genesis 2:18) and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while, why Adam would still have to be living for we haven’t even discovered nor named all the species. Also consider the idea of every living creature being brought to the Middle East, that would have killed many animals due to climatic changes. 13) God curses the serpent, making him crawl on his belly and eat dust (Genesis 3:14). One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don’t eat dust, do they? 14) “There were giants in the earth in those days.” Genesis 6:4 But there is no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants. Also there is a reference to the “Nephilim” being on the earth. Which is a term used for half angel, half human. Why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of the Nephilim either? 15) Noah is told to make an ark that is 450 feet long (Genesis 6:14-15). The largest wooden ships ever built were just over 300 feet, and they required diagonal iron strapping for support. Even so, they leaked so badly that they had to be pumped constantly. Are we to believe that Noah, with no shipbuilding knowledge and no shipbuilding tradition to rely upon, was able to construct a wooden ship that was longer than any that has been built since? 16) Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of “every thing that creepeth upon the earth” (Genesis 7:8). Now this must have taken some time, along with expert knowledge of taxonomy, genetics, biogeography, and anatomy. How did Noah manage to collect the endemic species from the New World, Australia, Polynesia, and other remote regions entirely unknown to him? How, once he found them, did he transport them back to his Near Eastern home? How could he tell the male and female beetles (there are more than 500,000 species) apart? How did he know how to care for these new and unfamiliar animals? How did he find the space on the ark? How did he manage to find and care for the hundreds of thousands of parasitic species or the hundreds of thousands of plant species? (Plants are ignored in the Genesis account, but the animals wouldn’t last long if the plants died in the flood.) No, wait, don’t tell me, a miracle happened, millions of them. 17) All of the animals boarded the ark “in the selfsame day” (Genesis 7:13-14). Since there were several million species involved, they must have boarded at a rate of at least 100 per second. How did poor Noah and his family make sure that the correct number of each species entered through the door and then get them all settled into their proper living quarters so efficiently? I wish the airline companies could do as well! 18) The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare (Genesis 7:20). Where did all the water come from? Where did it all go? Why is there no evidence of such a massive flood in the geological record? 19) When the animals left the ark (Genesis 8:19), what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find there way back after the flood subsided? 20) Noah kills the “clean beasts” and burns their dead bodies for God (Genesis 8:20). According to Genesis 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all “clean” animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. So why is it that we still have “clean” animals? 21) God is filled with remorse for having drowned his creatures in the flood. He even puts the rainbow in the sky so that whenever the animals see it they will remember God’s promise not to do it again (Genesis 9:13). But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 22) “The whole earth was of one language” (Genesis 11:1). But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others. 23) (Genesis. 11:4) According to the Tower of Babel story, the many human languages were created instantaneously by God (Genesis 11:9) But actually the various languages evolved gradually over long periods of time. 24) (Genesis 14:14) Abram goes into pursuit looking for his captive relative in the city of Dan. The problem here is that the city of Dan did not exist until over 300 years after Moses died. How is it that Abram could enter the city of Dan, when the city did not even exist? 25) Jacob displays his (and God’s) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats (Genesis 30:37). The author of Genesis (God?) believed that genetic characteristics of the offspring are determined by what the parents see at the moment of conception. This is a laughable belief. Ask any animal husbandrist. 26) Camels don’t divide the hoof (Leviticus 11:4). This statement is completely moronic for every TEENAGER knows what a “camel toe” and how it used to describe a specific split. 27) The bible says that hares and conies are unclean because they “chew the cud” but do not part the hoof (Leviticus 11:5-6). But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not “chew the cud.” 28) Bats are birds to the biblical God (Leviticus 11:13-19 & Deuteronomy 14:11-18). 29) Some birds have four feet (Leviticus 11:20-21). 30) If there is a God, there is one thing we know for sure about him: He really likes insects (particularly beetles). There are more species of insects, by far, than all other species of life on earth. As JBS Haldane said, “he has an inordinate fondness for beetles.” Yet insects are said to have four legs in Leviticus 11:22-23. 31) Unicorns have never existed, yet they are said to in Deuteronomy 33:17. 32) Fiery serpents have NEVER existed yet Numbers 21:6 claims they do and TO THIS DAY STILL inhabit certain cities. Maybe you are just an ardent darwinian evolutionist and think people like me are just simple-minded or even stupid. Try this one on for size: nothing + nothing = BANG...EVERYTHING! The evolutionist requires far more faith than the Christian when it comes to matters like these. Response: I’ve got news for you. The entire CHRISTIAN academic community thinks people like you are just simple-minded or even stupid. You are wrong about science. Science isn’t done with faith nor is it ever based on preconceived notions that can never be challenged or changed. It’s done with experiments and demonstrations NOT apologetic arguments like religion is. There are very plausible explanations for the universe and everything in it including life itself. Explanations based on supernatural mysticism explain nothing. In the end, the bible makes it clear why people attack Christianity...why I used to attack it myself: Our deeds are dark and we do not want our lives exposed to light, for with the light comes accountability, and with accountability comes judgment. Want to do something fun? Response: It’s quite obvious that the Bible has many defenses against free inquiry and critical thinking. I recognize this dogma for what it is. You bought into it hook, line and sinker I see. I feel sorry for you. Investigate the reasoning of the early evolutionist pioneers...why they wanted to travel that path. Their answer? Sexual freedom and/or anarchy. Excellent! Follow the dribble of a bunch of self-indulgent adolescents who can't stand the thought of being told that what they are doing might be wrong. I hope you will dialog with me further. Steve Response: You fundamentalists take one quote out of context from Huxley and think that represents something way more than just his opinion. Well it doesn’t. Science isn’t out to disprove the existence of God, the Bible, Christianity or anything else. It asks and then answers particular questions. Those answers have always and will always conflict with the Bible. That is why you hate and fear science. Just admit that please.

There is so much wrong with your post I could go on refuting it forever. Like a true creationist you confuse the Theory of Evolution with Big Bang cosmology, both of which are taught in every Christian college and university in the world that teaches science, and something else you creationists have no explanation for. If I’m an “evolutionist” well so is YOUR entire CHRISTIAN academic community made up of “evolutionists.” In fact everyone in the world is an “evolutionist” except for a small cult of poorly educated and scientifically ignorant people. How do you account for that? Don’t avoid this humiliating question. FYI the Big Bang theory does not state that something can come from nothing. It’s the Bible that makes that absurd claim, not science. Science tells us that the mass-energy that comprises the universe always existed, just in a different form before the Big Bang. If you would just take the time to read what scientists say about science instead of reading propaganda from the creationist liars at the Discovery Institute (which has never made even one discovery) you would not make such ignorant statements, which have clearly exposed your scientific imbecility. The early “evolutionist pioneers” were studying nature, not trying to make excuses for people to lead immoral lives. Again, you’ve swallowed a whole bunch of lies and propaganda from Christian apologist liars. I’ve heard your lame arguments over and over and over again. You people really do need some new material.

Steve said: I trust you have the courage of your convictions so lets go a round or two and see how it goes. Respectfully, Steve Noble Church Loyalist Apparently Steve is down for the count in round two. I claim another knock-out. It's very satisfying to silence your critics. Steve you are no match for an atheist in a debate. See most atheists have read the Bible a lot more carefully and completely than almost any Christian and we've also studied the history and theology of your religion a lot more closely and critically too. Now that you've seen your main arguments against atheism destroyed what are you going to Steve? I clearly showed that the Bible is very errant and inaccurate, that you are ignorant of what the major scientific theories you disagree with (which is ALL of them not just evolution) say about the universe and life, that Christianity is extremely dangerous and violent when it has any political power and you don't know squat about the Bible. Do you dare present any more of your spurious arguments and risk seeing them mocked and refuted also? What makes me sick about Christian fundamentalists is that they will see their arguments demonstrated to be false and absurd by one person but the next time they get in a debate they'll trot out the same arguments they know are false and try to fool the next person they are debating with, with the same stupid argument. Steve, I've heard your show and you are as guilty of this deception as anyone. If your religion were really true why does it have to be promoted with obvious lies and false propaganda?

Non-belief is the natural starting point until you are proven something. It is not an act of faith. I have seen no evidence for the existence of any God, only arguments, and arguments are NOT evidence. Now how is it possible for me to have any animosity toward something I don’t think exists? Do you have any animosity toward Allah? Think about it. That would be impossible because you would have to BELIEVE in Allah, that there IS an Allah to do that. Therefore I have no animosity toward any God because I don’t believe any Gods exist. What you detect is some animosity toward people who believe in God, not any God. I made a comment about being disappointed that the church still exists. You’re the one that took this thread in a bunch of different directions, not me. I did some research to prepare for the show I did with Dr. Michael Brown a few months ago. He wanted to discuss the relevance of the church in America as one of the subjects. So I went through a bunch of literature from the past and discovered a whole lot of criticism coming from Christians themselves that the church was not, at that particular time, relevant to American society. You can find these comments coming from Christians in any era during our past and it’s still going on today. THAT was the point I thought I could eventually make here and figured it might stir up some comments. I had no intention of getting into an argument about the merits of atheism or your fears and misconceptions about it nor do I want to debate about science with people who couldn’t pass an 8th grade science class.

If the church doesn’t make itself relevant to society how will it gain new members? Your response and what I’ve heard you say on the air indicates that you are indeed very concerned that the church is irrelevant. What you really desire of course is for society to make itself relevant to the church, not the other way around. I can’t see how, as we move towards a more secular society, that will ever happen. We’re rapidly moving in the other direction aren’t we? I agree that, “Most Americans call themselves ‘Christians’, but when you scratch the surface it becomes obvious that they are NOT.” If you talk to most people who claim to be Christians about their religious beliefs, the vast majority of these beliefs range between deism (the faith of our founders) and open theism. My wife is a prime example. She considers herself a Christian but she doesn’t believe the Bible or go to church and has doubted the existence of Jesus ever since one of her high school history teachers told her there wasn’t any historical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ. What kind of Christian is that may I ask? I also agree that biblical illiteracy in this nation seems to be at an all time high. Whether one believes the Bible or not is beside the point and it’s one’s own personal business. The Bible has been a tremendous influence on our Western Culture and people should at least be familiar with what it actually says, believers and non-believers alike. Again with this too I can’t see how, as we move towards a more secular society, that will ever happen.

Boy this blog is as dead as Christianity itself.

The point of the statement above being that administering "couch medicine" to a corpse is rather pointless. Well Steve, I can usually stir up some conversation when I get on a blog even if it's just people threatening me with eternal damnation and telling me to get off. Next show you might tell the listeners Boris the Atheist is here. You might get some interesting posts and activity from that. BTW I got an invitation to come back as a guest on a show on Truth Talk Live but nothing has been confirmed yet.